3 10 188 https://melrosestories.org/files/original/77bd4cd82501b0ebd4f9281aa16f14fc.jpg 173dd7f67c5c4d9a5164b0b7f96b8e4b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Greywolf - Oral History Subject The topic of the resource An oral history interview with Greywolf. Description An account of the resource Greywolf describes his experience of neighborhood change and activism in Melrose, within the South Bronx of NYC. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sarah Singh Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audio recording Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 18 April, 2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Greywolf and Sarah Singh Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sarah Singh Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Greywolf profile photo. Greywolf https://melrosestories.org/files/original/9a2233fbeeb6f891f26eb09ed00ab92e.jpg 0411e7ea7f880d9c324e85c33325b620 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Photo of Melrose resident and activist, Chaney Yelverton Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 13, 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sophie Maes https://melrosestories.org/files/original/ec2169f3effcbd3019e0a26659a054b3.m4a 3c461cce2eec4795fd513ceb1c1ce8c4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jefri Mesa Subject The topic of the resource Exhibit Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers and Jefri Mesa Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Isabella Leόn-Chambers Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jefri Mesa Location The location of the interview Manhattan Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Oral History Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 49:42 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Jefri Mesa Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Jefri Mesa describes his childhood in the Melrose section of the South Bronx, where his mother continues to live. He believes that Melrose started to get gentrified around 2010 and discusses the ways in which community members can preserve their cultures. He also expresses his frustration with the lack of subway lines that run through the Bronx and the times he was racially profiled by police officers. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jefri Mesa Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 5, 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Jefri Mesa Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource m4a Jefri Mesa oral history https://melrosestories.org/files/original/36c95412810bc24ab3d225030e2f8405.jpg 351b9501e86eb66be811688c3b05d68a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jefri Mesa Subject The topic of the resource Exhibit Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers and Jefri Mesa Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. 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Title A name given to the resource Jefri Mesa Profile Photo Subject The topic of the resource Photo Description An account of the resource Selfie Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jefri Mesa Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Jefri Mesa Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource JPEG image Jefri Mesa https://melrosestories.org/files/original/fd6e8c922bc43747f971970a98797281.jpg 89e69129f435c0fc17061021e28c3ca0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jefri Mesa Subject The topic of the resource Exhibit Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers and Jefri Mesa Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Photo Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 334 x 431 pixels (72 pixels/inch) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jefri and Miguelina Mesa Subject The topic of the resource A photo of Jefri and his mother Description An account of the resource Jefri and his mother, Miguelina, in their apartment located in the Melrose section of the South Bronx. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jefri Mesa Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Jefri Mesa Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource JPEG image Jefri Mesa https://melrosestories.org/files/original/a9b04f91113681189994e3580cc25efd.pdf 8735e5eb0e2ac1d7cc8005a6cc681e0c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jefri Mesa Subject The topic of the resource Exhibit Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers and Jefri Mesa Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document Interviewer: Isabella Leόn-Chambers Interviewee: Jefri Mesa Date of Interview: April 5, 2017 Location of Interview: 253 Broadway, New York, New York, 10007 Transcriber: Isabella Leόn-Chambers Abstract: Jefri Mesa moved to the Melrose section of the South Bronx when he was four years old from the Tremont area. In this interview, Jefri reflects upon the experiences he had in Melrose, throughout his childhood, which make him nostalgic. Despite the fact that he moved out of Melrose during his college years, he continues to go back because his mother still lives there. Jefri also explains the work he did as an employee at WHEDco and the ways in which he believes community members can fight gentrification. He highlights that the South Bronx started to get gentrified around 2010. He also expresses his frustration with the lack of subway lines that run through the Bronx and the times he had been racially profiled by police. Jefri has mixed feelings about the Netflix show, The Get Down , because he believes that people probably think that the Bronx is still burning. Even though he thinks it is an entertaining show to watch, he sees how it can be problematic. He also describes his hopes for the future of the South Bronx and claims that he wants people to come there to enjoy its rich music and culture, however, he has his doubts. IL: This is Isabella Leόn-Chambers and I am interviewing Jefri Mesa. J-E-F-R-I space M-E-S-A. It is April 5, 2017. This is for (Dis)placed Urban Histories at NYU Gallatin, Spring 2017. IL: So, Jefri, could you tell me a little about where you come from? JM: Um... I was born in the Bronx. I was actually born, I don't know if it is really considered the South Bronx, but I was born in Tremont. Tremont area. At the age of 4, I moved over to Melrose. I don't really remember much about moving but I remember that I was in pre-K. And my ethnic background.... I'm Dominican. So, you know, Hispanic. Um... and... what else? IL: Um... So, what was it like growing up there as a child? JM: Um... It was I don’t know... it was very different. I was there since i was four and then I started moving away... Really... I mean my mom still lives there. So, she still lives in the same area that we grew up in. Um... but I officially moved out I would say in college. So, I saw it change a lot. Um... I would say that it started out as very, very – I don’t know – I feel like it was very under construction. There was a lot of construction projects going on all around. And then even to this day it is still happening, but at the same time I felt like it was a very... especially my block, it was very... It felt like a community. Like most people knew each other. Um... We had a lot of street activities, street fairs going on. Umm... I think it was pretty fun. I think I got lucky where I grew up. It wasn't bad. IL: Um. So... What role did your culture play in your background... like in your childhood? And in your community? JM : Um... In my childhood, I would say that definitely the food that you eat. Does that count? Um... The neighborhood I would say is very mixed, which is nice. Um... There are a lot of African-Americans, a lot of Latino people from all different countries. Um... So... I wouldn't say that the Dominican culture dominated the area. Umm... but it definitely dominated my life because the music that I would hear, the food that I would eat. Umm... That was really prevalent during that time... of me living there. IL: So, how would you describe the South Bronx? JM: Umm... (Laughs). It's always changing. Oh my god. Umm, I feel like the South Bronx is... it's filled with history and I would say always under construction, like I said earlier. Um... because there's always some big change in coming. Especially like in these times. Gentrification happening. Um... You know. You see people in the South Bronx neighborhoods that you never saw before. A lot of businesses are starting to be displaced. Um... Housing is getting more expensive. What was the question again? IL : Um... Oh, no. You're just describing how it has changed. JM: Yeah, so I would say it is definitely getting more expensive. Um, it's becoming harder to move in there. Um... Lots of affordable housing projects. Um.. Those are really popular these days. I mean you can tell that they're affordable housing just by the way they look. Trust me, they all look the same. They all have these orange bricks. Uh, which is like cheaper bricks. I heard. That's why they all use them. Um... and honestly, I do think that it's becoming more safer at the same time. Um, not as much crime as I saw when I was younger. Um, yeah. I got lucky, I guess. Because I was there from so young and like even into my college years until I moved out of my parents' house, just like two years ago now. Um... It's... You can tell that it feels safer. Umm.. going to the parks feels safer. IL: Were there ever like any areas that you didn’t go to? If so, why? JM: Yeah, um, a little bit around like 138th, you would see a lot of housing projects there. And you would see... It’s near a precinct. And, um, usually the rule in the Bronx is that if it’s near a precinct, it might be somewhere that feels unsafe. And... it’s not always the case, I wanna say. But... Is this picking up well? IL: Mhm... JM: Yeah. Okay. It’s not always the case. But, um, the precinct is in a heavy crime area. But sometimes it is. And 138th street, you’d see that a lot. And I didn’t have a reason to hang out around there, but... IL: Um... so... what would you say to people who have negative stereotypes about the Bronx? JM: I would say that... IL: Oh, wait, sorry, and in the past have people said those stereotypes to you? JM: Yeah... Definitely. People. Oh my god. I have a lot to say about this. I’ll try to keep it short... (Laughs). Okay. I know one of my friends, she was born in Brooklyn, she lived in Virginia most of her life and then she came back to Brooklyn after college. I met her in college. And she lives there now. She’s always telling me, “Oh, move to Brooklyn, it’s much nicer.” And I’m like “mmm...” There’s a lot of parts of Brooklyn that are very similar to the Bronx. Um... and the Bronx, it’s not a bad area, I would just say it doesn’t have as many tourist attractions as there should be. Um, you know, if you go to Brooklyn, you have neighborhoods filled with bars, that’s something you don’t really see in the Bronx. There are some bars but I feel like they are very niche, like only a certain type of people go there. Or... I don’t know. They... Yeah. Only a certain type of people go there. Um... but I would say that it is not as scary as it seems. People have never been to the Bronx and judge it. They think, you know, that there is gangs everywhere, and that’s not true. There is crime but there is crime in every borough. Um... You know... I... There are a lot of parts of the Bronx that they may be surprised about, like places like Riverdale, like Pelham Parkway. Um... which are, you know, they look a little bit. I understand that some parts of the Bronx aren’t that clean. But there are parts of it that are really clean. Um, yeah, and I would say that there is a lot going on here like there’s great food. There’s definitely great... There’s some great clubs. Um... It’s rich in culture. I mean the history that this borough is, you know, amazing. In terms of like where hip-hop started. Um.. and things of that nature. But... IL : Do you have any recommendations for like places where people should go to in the South Bronx? JM: In the South Bronx? Um... Yeah... Hmm... I’m trying to think. I would say, I don’t know if this is the South Bronx persay, but I’m trying to think. Hold on. Um... There’s a place on Grand Concourse. Um, what’s the name? (Laughs). Why can’t I remember? Um, alright, so, I have one place. It’s not originally what I was originally thinking of. But there’s this restaurant. Um, yeah, it’s in the South Bronx, it’s along 150th. I don’t know the adjacent street. Like 3rd avenue? It’s this... Washington Heights has this place called “Mofongo House.” Have you heard of it? Um, yeah. There’s one like it I would say in the Bronx. And it has really, really good food. And I would definitely recommend it. Um.. Also, St. Mary’s Park. Um... That’s where, what’s his name? Bernie Sanders had a thing there. An event there, when he was running for office. And, um, you know it has a lot of history there. A lot of like hip-hop started actually in St. Mary’s Park. Um, and you can find it in like a lot of TV shows now. A lot of movies are being filmed there. Um, recently. Like The Get Down. A lot of it was filmed there. Um, and, it’s a beautiful park, it’s big. And it has this like recreation center. There’s like a swimming pool, a gym, it’s fun. During my teen years, I used to go there a lot. Especially in the summer. It’s nice. And you can swim year round. So, that’s fun. I think that’s one thing that a lot of people don’t take advantage of, cause, I remember going to it and it was always empty or it was always the same people. It’s a great resource. And there’s a lot of residential areas nearby. And I think the park is beautiful, it’s big. So, that’s nice. IL: Um... So do you still visit places that you visited... um... as a child? JM: My mom’s house? (Laughs). Yeah. Um... In the South Bronx? Yeah, well... Alright, one place that I always love walking through is like 161st. All the way down. And you go through Melrose. From Yankee Stadium all the way to like 3rd avenue. 3rd Avenue is the area that I lived in. Um, doing that walk... it’s long but it’s nice. Yeah, that area has definitely changed too over the years. They’ve opened a Starbucks. And I think Starbucks is a good sign that, you know, there’s change. Change happening. Um... and the courthouses are by there too. Um... and actually, not too long ago, I went to a theatre. I don’t know. Do you know the area well? IL: Sort of. I’m familiar with it from this class. JM: Yeah, okay, so there’s like the Concourse, I think it’s called Concourse Plaza. Yeah. There’s like a movie theater there. And that’s a place I used to go to a lot as a kid. Umm... My mom used to take me a lot because it was right there. And I actually went recently with a friend. And it was like, “oh, this theater really hasn’t changed.” But they have a lot of amenities there too. A lot of stores inside. It’s like a mall. It’s cool. IL: Um... what do you like or dislike about the South Bronx today? JM: Umm... Alright, one thing I don’t like is that... I don’t know if this counts but I have a huge issue with the fact that there’s no trains running. First of all, um, the lines in the Bronx are really limited. Um...we have the “2” and the “5” but there’s nothing in between the “2” and the “5” and then the “4” and the “D.” They are like on really opposite sides. There’s nothing in the middle, which is actually where Melrose is, which makes it really hard. There’s the, what’s it called? The MetroNorth that runs right through there but that’s not reliable at all. Um... and I’m surprised, you know, they have the “Q” line but it doesn’t go up to where we are and there’s no trains running from the Bronx to Queens, which makes it really difficult for anyone who has families in Queens or the Bronx. Traveling between the two boroughs is really hard, unless you take a car. But some of us don’t have cars. Yeah, I have huge beef with that. IL: Why do you think there are so many limited train lines up there? JM: Um... I think it’s that people honestly, like, if you look at the city. A comparison that I can make, that’s really good actually. A month ago we had a huge snowstorm. Who got cleaned first? Manhattan. Because it is a really popular area to go to. And then neighborhoods after that, each borough, get cleaned up really fast, whereas, in the Bronx, you know the streets stay icy for many days. It’s just that there’s not a lot of money and revenue, so they don’t care as much as Manhattan or other boroughs. IL: Um... So how are you involved in your community? Or how were you involved? JM: Well, I was... I just came... I used to be an employee at WHEDco, and, um, that was, I would say, my first real job after college. And I think that was a great opportunity, because we worked directly in the Bronx. Umm... and I really got to see and learn a lot about how different things that change our community work. Such as affordable housing, um, helping businesses who are just starting up. Um, and just like services that we provide to the community. I just think it was a great experience to be apart of that. And still I’m apart of this network right now, um, and, I mean... Kind of part of this network. I don’t want to say I am. It’s called South Bronx Rising Together. And it’s another initiative that helps people of the South Bronx. But it helps them more towards education, whereas WHEDco, helps them in a lot of different ways, like affordable housing, education, health services, family support programs, stuff like that. I’m still part of that but I haven’t been to a meeting in awhile. (You don’t need to say that). But, I don’t know. What I’m fascinated about is how the community is changing and who is moving in and how can we preserve, you know, those cultures that have grown up there. You know? IL: So, how do you think people can preserve their culture? JM: Well, you don’t need to make things more expensive. You know? What it really should be is that you should serve the people of your community first and try to make the streets safer. Try to make it easier for people that already live there to live there. Make it easier for them. Don’t make it harder. Because that’s the only way that people are going to be moved out, is if you make it harder for them to live. And, you know, the South Bronx especially, it should be a “for us, by us” environment, where the people who live there should have a huge hand in shaping how it is going to look in the future. And it’s possible that’s not going to happen because, you know, prices are going up and it’s going to make harder for people who originally lived in the Bronx to live there. IL: Um, so what exactly did you do at WHEDco? JM: So, I was a researcher. Um... research assistant was my official title. I did a lot of like different functions, I would say. Um... For example, I would evaluate our programing. I would measure the impact WHEDco was making to the community. So, for example, how exactly were our afterschool programs helping the community that we served. Doing a lot of data analysis, capturing data through surveys, interviews, evaluations, observations. Research. Actually, kind of like this. What you’re doing right now. I had my own little recorder and when I would interview people I would record it and transcribe it and then write it up. IL: Um, so, do you do that right now at the Mayor’s office? JM: Um.. No.. I think my job is completely different. What I like about the Mayor’s office is that now I get to work with a bunch of nonprofits. Umm... my job is completely different, though, I would say. I still work with data. But what I’m doing right now... My official title is risk analyst. So, I analyze the performance of nonprofits across the city. So, if a nonprofit is not doing well financially, we catch it and then put them on a corrective action plan to tell them, “You’re doing this wrong and this is how you should fix it.” And, um, this whole like legal thing. Stuff like this. A lot of people are not complying to like city regulations. And um... we just make sure they are. Yeah, it is very different but at the same time, I think it’s cool because I get to see all of these different nonprofits and you get like this understanding of how to run a good nonprofit and how people screw up. People screw up in a common way, and you learn, “okay, this is not what should be going on.” Um... Especially in the Bronx, I feel like there are a lot of nonprofits serving homeless people. A lot of them fail for a specific type of reason. The thing is, I can’t really talk about my job in this interview. I wouldn’t like to. Because, I don’t think it’s.... Like, my supervisors don’t know that I’m having this interview. IL: Oh, okay. JM: So, I can tell you what it is, but like anything specific... Oh.. my mom is calling me. Hold on. Hello? Umm.. Estoy en un interview ahora. Yo te llamo. En un interview de mi trabajo. Yo te llamo en treinta minutos, cuarenta minutos? Alright, bye. Sorry about that. IL: Umm... JM: It’s just that I wouldn’t want this to be like written down. (Laughs). Because they are going to be like, “Oh, what’s this for?” IL: Um. So... What do you miss most about the South Bronx? JM: Um... I miss being a kid there. Yeah. I miss like going outside. I feel like, I mean, of course I’m an adult now, so playing... Where I used to live, in the center of it, there was this like park. Um, and it had this jungle gym and we would always like play games and manhunt. I just miss my childhood. I felt like things were a lot easier. Also, it wasn’t ever bad where I lived. Um, of course, things would happen, but I felt like I was safe to go outside. Um... and it was just fun. I felt free. Um... I miss my neighborhood. Even though my mom still lives there, it is not the same. IL: Have you seen her building change over the years? Like people going in and out? JM: Yeah, definitely. Oh yeah. There’s a lot of people that are... What are they? Because we moved not that... Like five years ago now. But it was to the same block, so, not really moving at all. Um... and... in our old building, we had move out, and our neighbor, who we grew up with too, had to move out. That was really sad. Cause I really never saw her again. I did see her again. But, it wasn’t... I don’t know. I saw her like maybe once. We didn’t keep in touch. I think there’s like maybe one person from my childhood that’s still there. In the old building. So, yeah, it’s changed. Um... how it’s changed? It’s really just people. I mean, the rent has gone up, obviously, but I would say it is still the same demographically. Um... still families, still people of color. So... in that way, it hasn’t really changed too much.... But... I don’t know... Maybe you can ask more about that question. IL: Um, so, when do you think your neighborhood started to get gentrified? JM: Um, I would say around like 2010ish. Cause every time I would come back it was always something different... about the area. Like, some new affordable housing building. Um... it’s slow, but it’s happening. I don’t think it is as crazy as like how... let’s say, Williamsburg looks now. Um... but I think it is like slowly happening. Um... I know like around 138th. You know? That part of the South Bronx is definitely starting to become more expensive. And I know that just because I looked at apartments in that area before. Um, so that’s how I know. So, I would say that this decade it has been changing a lot. IL: Um, so, the South Bronx was actually listed as one of the places to go in The New York Times. JM: I saw that. IL: How did that make you feel? JM: (Laughs). Like really?! Well, what did the article say again? I can’t remember. IL: Um, it was talking about how it’s like up and coming.... Dah dah dah. JM: I would say, yes, at the same time, I’m like defensive about it. I think it’s both good exposure and bad exposure at the same time. Because, it’s up and coming? But for who? For our own people? No. Probably not. It is exciting because you do, alright, we are in The New York Times , and we’re in there for something good. That’s not something that happens too, too often. Um... at the same time, it’s like... you know. Are people going to start to come here who aren’t from here? I think that gentrification is not always like a bad thing. The real negative affect about it is that we moved the original people out. We displace their homes and businesses too. Um, and you kind of lose culture. That’s the bad part. At the same time... it could be that, you know, you have more activities going on. Um... more nightlife... could be good. More concerts in this area. I know that there have been concerts in different parts of the Bronx but a lot of people don’t come here, whereas, there’s a lot of venues in Queens, Brooklyn, Manhattan, especially. Um... we don’t really have that. We have like one concert hall and it’s like... not that great. It’s rare that a good person comes there. Or if a good person comes there, it’s like someone who was from the Bronx originally. Like Fat Joe or like JLo. They’ve come like recently. IL: Um... So... you went to high school in the Bronx? JM: Yeah, but not in the South Bronx. IL: Oh, okay. Where’d you go to high school? JM: Um... What’s that area called? Mosholu. That’s my train station. That’s the street name. Mosholu Parkway. It’s very much like upper east side. Not like west. It’s almost near Yonkers and Riverdale. Like really up there. Like 200 something. Yeah. On the “4” line. IL: Um, did a lot of community members go to that same high school as you? JM: Um. No. I wouldn’t say so. No. I’m sure like. I can’t say I know one person who went to my high school that lived in my neighborhood. Maybe one person. I don’t know. I never met them. I’m sure they did but I never met them. IL: Have you seen shopping change in this area over the years, and if so, how? JM: Yeah... I feel like there’s more. That reminds me of a different area of the Bronx. Shopping, yeah. I feel like some stores are dying out. Like... What is it? Conway? Conway used to be big on 3rd avenue in the South Bronx. I don’t... I think it did shut down and they replaced it with something else. Um... at the same time that 3rd avenue area. I don’t know what it’s officially called, 149th... You can look this up. Like plug it in there. But... um... it’s becoming more... I don’t know. I think it’s becoming more attractive. But, it’s always been, at the same time. I don’t think much has changed but like different stores have definitely popped up. I don’t really shop in the area. So like, I can’t say... but, is it like 149th street hub? I think that’s what it’s called? Do you know? Yeah... Um... Yeah. Whatever. IL: So do you think these shop owners should get in touch with community members? If they are like gentrifying the area to like form a coalition. How do you think – JM: Wait. Who? Who’s gentrifying? IL: Like shop owners... Yeah, the people gentrifying. Do you think they should be in contact with the community? JM: Yeah... It’s hard because it could be a good thing and a bad thing, I guess. I’m not too sure how it works or how it would work. So... in my mind, if they are in contact with the community, they could somehow make an agreement on, “what is it that you want, how can we serve you?” Actually, at WHEDco we kind of did that sometimes. Um... We did like consumer report reviews. Where consumers would tell us what they want and we would give that information back to the businesses. Um...so... hopefully something like that could happen. IL: Could you tell me more about your time at WHEDco? And like what projects you guys worked on? JM: Alright. I’ll tell you one that was based in Melrose. So we’re building this new building in Melrose called Bronx Commons. Not “we” because I don’t work there anymore. But they are. They’re building this building. And for that I remember I had to survey a couple hundred people. Like 300. About what their community needs are. And in the frame of mind, where, whatever resources WHEDco has, how can we use those resources to help these people. Or how can we make changes to help these people. So, yeah, basically I surveyed a bunch of people. Took that information... and then... You know, because we are also looking for businesses to occupy the area. We give those reports to those people. And it really informs us of people that we want to move into that area. In terms of businesses. Okay, so, people want a lot of clothing stores because there isn’t a lot in that area. Then, we’ll contact people who are looking to move in with a clothing store. Or something like that. Or if they want a nightclub or someplace to eat. That type of thing. IL: Um, so how would you describe the planning of the Melrose area? Or... if you could change anything about it. Is there anything that you dislike? JM: Planning? Um... like? IL : Like the urban planning. Like the ways... JM: Well, I did mention the.... IL: Like the ways streets are set up... Or even buildings. JM: Well, I did say the subway. If there was a subway, an MTA subway, that ran through the middle of it... I think... maybe like 161st street could be split into like two streets because it does get pretty... A lot of traffic there sometimes. So, I would say that. I think it’s fine. It can be congested. So... Make the streets wider. I don’t know. Or split the streets. I’m not sure how that works, to be honest. I’m not the best at urban planning. I’m interested in it but... I don’t know too much about it. IL: Um... So what are your fondest memories of growing up in the South Bronx? JM: I think I kind of touched on that earlier, which was just being able to go outside and play. Playing manhunt, hide-and-seek, whatever. That was really fun. IL: Where did you play? JM: In the park that was like inside our block. Our block would be like a square. So the square would be buildings and in the middle would be a park, which was pretty cool. I think that’s a beautiful place. It’s like a hidden gem in itself. Whoever designed that area was smart because you have a park in the middle and you don’t have to cross the street or anything. Um... And some houses are facing the park. So, like, they would have backyards, in a sense, because it was open to the public. But it was nice and they have gates. If they ever want to close it at night, it’s a possibility. IL: Um, so, how does your mom like living in the South Bronx? JM: I think she likes it but.... Honestly, she does complain a lot about like....”Oh, there’s people smoking.” Or like the police are here. She likes it because it’s affordable to her. She likes it because our family is nearby too. IL: Are they in the South Bronx? JM: Yeah... Um, I would say like the middle of the Bronx but not far. They are like a busride away. So it’s not far, far. And like the metrics for the South Bronx, what covers it always, confuses me. Because people have different terms of what the South Bronx is. Like some people think the South Bronx is only below like 149th street, some people don’t think 161st street is the South Bronx, but it is. Um... Yeah. IL: Um... So... JM: We still have half an hour? IL: Yeah. Um... What was I going to say.? Do you ever see yourself moving back? JM: Um... Not right now because where I work is kind of far. The commute is kind of long. So I definitely want to move somewhere closer. But maybe when I get older. I don’t know. If I ever work in the Bronx, then yeah. That’s not like out of the question. And even like Melrose. Honestly, like, I would like to be closer to the trains so Yankee Stadium would be ideal. But that, you know, would be nice. Do you mind if I pause to get a bathroom break? IL: Oh. Yeah. JM: Yeah. IL: So, earlier you talked about The Get Down and how it’s been filmed in the Bronx. Um... So I was wondering if you could talk more about that. JM: Yeah, so, The Get Down was definitely very controversial. I liked it because for me it was fun. Also, it was filmed in the Bronx, and I think it was like “oh my god, I know this area.” Like St. Mary’s Park was a big thing in the first episode. And a bunch of different neighborhoods. And I remember one of my good friends saying, he also lives in the Bronx, towards Yankee Stadium. And that’s where they had one of the sets. And he said “oh yeah, I think they are filming something there.” It’s exciting and actually, that’s not the only thing. I remember something else they filmed there. I’ll talk about that a little bit later. Um... So... The Get Down it was about, really, the birth of hip-hop, how it started dominating clubs, coming out of the 70s. Where, before, it used to be disco, which is really interesting. And it also has to do with politics and more affordable housing coming to the Bronx.... Um... how the Bronx was always burning. You’ll probably hear that expression that, “the Bronx is burning,” because people would light buildings on fire. Um... I would say that my one problem with it was that it felt too exaggerated. Sometimes. I dunno if this actually happened, but they would have meetings. I mean, I can see it happening because while at WHEDco, we kind of did it once. They were in front of this construction site, where behind it, was like a wasteland and they were having like a – I don’t know – someone was running for President of the Bronx or something. I can’t remember now. Um... but, they were having it and the backdrop was this wasteland. And it was all these buildings that had been burnt down. And I think that’s a little overdramatic. But it’s a show and I accept that it’s a show. Um... One thing that I find interesting is all the graffiti because I think that used to be a huge problem in the 80s. And now that kind of trend has died down, don’t you think? You never hear about taggers. No? (Laughs). But, I find it interesting. Um... What else can I say about... Um... What I liked about it was definitely the music. They showed how these underground clubs were popular and everybody seemed like they were having a good time. So it seemed like, okay, the Bronx used to be fun. And at the same time, you are starting to hear about these underground parties again but they are with like celebrities. And it’s like a little bit too much. And they are trying to recreate how it was. It’s not the same. Um... So... it was good in some ways. It could have been better if it wasn’t as exaggerated, but that particular director, he kind of likes to... That’s what he likes to do. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen that 1990s Romeo and Juliet with that... What’s his name? IL: Leonardo DiCaprio? JM: Yeah. Him. It’s the same acting. It’s literally the same. I didn’t even know that he directed both movies but I was like, okay, this reminds of Romeo and Juliet . The same like, direction. It was weird. It could have been the same movie. Um... and it also had some like LGBT representation. Which I think is something in the Bronx that’s kind of like under the rug, but it’s definitely like a huge part of it. So... IL: Could you tell me more about that? JM: Yeah. Um... Honestly. I don’t know too much. But... um... it seems like there used to be a huge underground... Well, the club scene. I guess. There was a lot of gay people there. In the Bronx. Um... and... the people that made hip-hop popular was a lot of gay people. And I think they go uncredited but it’s true. Gay people have a history of going uncredited. I think that in the Bronx in this day in age, there’s not a huge gay scene at all. Um... I don’t even think there’s one gay bar, which is kind of sad. Um... But they do have small nonprofits that help gay people. Especially, you know, people who deal with HIV/AIDS. Which, you know, most of the people affected are gay people. Which is really, um, important in our community. IL: Um... So how do you think media’s representation of the Bronx has affected people’s view of it? JM: I think they are starting to warm up to it. At the same time, sometimes, it can be, the representation is not that great. In The Get Down , people probably think the Bronx is still like that. (Laughs). I wouldn’t be surprised. Like, “oh, are buildings still burning?” Stuff like that, which is not true. It can be good or bad. At the same time, they might be more interested in the culture. I know people visit, like, the Bronx Museum of Art, which is technically in the South Bronx too. Um... Yeah. And, you know, hopefully, you know, I hope people aren’t that judgemental and it makes them curious. I hope it makes them want to find out more. Definitely. Um. I remember I was thinking about this other show, called, Gotham , you’ve probably heard of it. The Batman show when he was a kid. On Fox. And... um... that was filmed in the South Bronx too. (Office lights turn off). Oh snap. Um... It’s fine. Yeah, that was filmed in the South Bronx. I hope I can be here because I’ve never been here that late. So... I think the light is automatic. That’s what it is. There’s no one in this area. Um... Hopefully. Um... So, yeah. That was also filmed. That’s like a cop show, kind of. I think that’s also fun. That was cool. That’s all I have to say on that. IL: Um, speaking of cops, I know you talked earlier about how there was one area with a precinct, and how a lot of people said to avoid it. Why do you think that is? JM: I think that it was just that there was a lot of crime happening there. Um, actually, I remember one time, my brother and I were driving through there and he got stopped. And it was for no reason at all. Just his car. And probably what he looked like. And it was right next to the precinct. And they were like, “oh, what’s going on?” And we were like nothing... It was weird. Very strange. I think it might have had like a bad history with gangs in that area. Um... I’m not too sure about like the facts. But, it is what it is. IL: Um... Do you see... Well, in high school did you see a lot of cops usually like on the subways, at the stations or outside? JM: Yeah... There’s always cops in the Bronx. Yeah. I see them more now, I feel, actually. Well, we’ve had this problem. Well, I don’t know if it’s a huge problem. But there’s people who like to sell metrocards at the subway, you know, they sell swipes. I don’t know how they’re getting the metrocards, but they’re definitely turning out profit. Um... and that’s illegal. And... so... there’s more cops there. Also, like, sometimes depending on the subway you go to... I don’t know. They might be unsafe. It gets dark at night. I do see a lot of cops. I don’t think that’s really changed. IL: Have you had other experiences with the police? Besides that time with your brother? JM: Yeah, that’s not incriminating? (Laughs). IL: (Laughs). JM: Yeah, I’ve never had an incriminating experience. I remember once when I was like 15. Um... I was actually... We were... driving. Not driving. Riding our bikes on the sidewalks. Which you’re not supposed to do, but I see people do it all the time. Especially here. But we got stopped. We got frisked. They were like, “oh, you have drugs?” And we were like, “no, we’re just kids, we’re just teenagers.” We got a huge fine because of that. It was like $100. (Laughs). Yeah. It was my brother and I and my cousin. I wasn’t even driving my bike, my brother and my cousin were. They came to pick me up, so that I could come over to my cousin’s house because I was sleeping. I was taking a day nap. I was like 14. Um, and they came to pick me up. So, they were riding and I was walking next to them. And then the copped stopped and they gave us a ticket. It was stupid. They could have just told us, we really didn’t know, we were underage. I think because my brother was 17, it was okay to give a ticket. It was stupid. It was stupid. Like, come on. It’s a harmless thing to ride your bike on a sidewalk, unless there’s people there, then I understand, but there was like no one. That wasn’t fun. IL: How do you think people in the South Bronx feel about the police? JM: Um... I don’t think they like them. Um, but, my personal view of it is that they do keep us safe. It’s just... and I think it’s gotten better over the years. At least, in my experience, um, not everywhere else I would say, but frisking has stopped. I’m sure people still get frisked sometimes but it’s not really allowed now. Um... I don’t know. Anything else? I’m worried about the time. IL: Oh, okay, well we can wrap up soon if you want. JM: Yeah. IL: Okay. Um... So what do see as like the – JM: Where are we in time? IL: Um... like 45 minutes. JM: Alright, is that good? IL: Yeah. What do you see as like the future of the South Bronx? What do you envision? JM: Oh my god. I hope. My hope is that it does like go back to its root. Where it was the birthplace of hip-hop. Something I didn’t get to talk about really, outside of hip-hop, it’s good for like Spanish music like Salsa. WHEDco, like a branch of WHEDco, one of our affiliates, they have dance classes and music playing classes. A lot of that is geared to different types of culture, like Puerto Rican culture, Dominican culture, African culture. It’s pretty cool. Um... I want the South Bronx to be like this hub for music and for people to come here and just enjoy music. That would be cool. Like New Orleans style. The Bronx is like rich with music and live black bands and stuff. Except if the people who moved in here, had the same idea in mind, that would be awesome. You know? Um... So that’s my hope. How do I think it’s going to happen? (Laughs). Um... I just think there’s gonna be like a bunch of rich people who are gonna start building these expensive buildings for poor people that are not really poor. And, um, yeah. A lot of people being displaced. That’s how I expect it to happen, like it happened in other gentrified neighborhoods. I hope it doesn’t happen. Um... but yeah. I also feel like if hip-hop is still existent or like recognized in the future, in this area. Um... I mean in the South Bronx. I feel like I’m in the South Bronx now that I’m talking about it so much. But, um, if hip-hop is still recognized it will probably be appropriated in some type of way or like taken advantage of. Or, you know, someone might turn the profit just because the South Bronx is this like landmark for that, um, type of event. Historic event. So, I hope that doesn’t happen. I hope it continues to serve the people that it already inhabits and I hope that... I don’t know. I do hope more people come here but for the right reasons. And I do hope that it gets safer. I think it will get safer. Definitely. IL: So now that we’re coming to an end, is there anything else you would like to talk about? Or clarify? JM: If you had a question or if I wanted to add something else... I don’t know. I think it would have been great, off the record, if you would have sent me the questions because I’m not that great with on the spot. IL: Oh, no. JM: I don’t know how I got this job, because I’m not good with interviews but – IL: No, you’ve been great. JM: But... um... a lot of my memories. Like I’m gonna go on the train home and I’m gonna be like “oh, I should have said this,” and I’m gonna talk to my friend later and be like, “oh, I could have said that.” Um. I feel like I have these conversations a lot but off the top of my head sometimes it can be like... Eh. (Laughs). Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Transcript Description An account of the resource A transcript of Jefri Mesa's oral history. (Recorded on April 5, 2017). Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 5, 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Isabella Leόn-Chambers Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Jefri Mesa and Isabella Leόn-Chambers Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Jefri Mesa oral history transcription https://melrosestories.org/files/original/e85d27aa68168a3a8b6d8f7ed8b4d6e6.png 7658df386a06df103b6df44af4b6007f https://melrosestories.org/files/original/16ed6b34ca5ef5c95d81b0faad058e8a.docx b5c9603d4d1f22fd49213622543b9895 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Marty Rogers Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource An account of activism in the South Bronx by a lifelong member of the community. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dylan Garcia Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audio recording Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 5th 2017, April 21st 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marty Rogers, Dylan Garcia Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document <p class="p1"><span class="s1">Interviewee: Martin Rogers</span></p> <p class="p1"><span class="s1">Interviewer: Dylan Garcia</span></p> <p class="p1"><span class="s1">Date: April 5th, 2017 </span></p> <p class="p1"><span class="s1">Place: Melrose Bronx, New York NY</span></p> <p class="p1"><span class="s1">Transcriber: Dylan Garcia</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: I’m here with Marty Rogers and it is April 5th [2017] and this is for Displaced Urban Histories, NYU Gallatin, Spring 2017. I Guess we’ll just start off by you telling me a little about yourself, your history, where you come from, family, geography, culture, things like that.</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>MR</b>: Okay, my name is Marty Rogers, I’ve lived in New York all my life. My family’s been in New York all their life, my family’s been here so long… I think somebody in my mother’s family fought in the civil war, we always said to her which side, thank god she said the North. *laughs* Ethnically my family’s Irish, German, Swiss, and a few others. they’ve been here since the late 1800s, no connection to Europe, New York is our home always was our home, and I grew up in this community, in this neighborhood. My mom’s family moved from 71st and York Avenue on the East side to here in 1927 and we always said, “Mom why didn’t you stay on York and 71st?” and she said, “Well in those days it was so crowded and congested and polluted coming to the Bronx was like coming to the country.” *laughs* More open space. And this historically was farm country, there were breweries around here and we got good water, and we had space, and we had German people and all other people who wanted to drink beer. I have two older brothers and a younger sister, and I live here with my beautiful wife Francine we have three great kids and I grew up in this community and was educated in this community and a member of the Immaculate Conception Church our church is very important its served as an anchor for the community, Ive worked, lived here I’ve worked 38 years with the community resource center which is a local non for profit which ran group home for developmentally disabled people, they still do. Im basically retired now, but I stay busy, because theres so many things to be a part of in the community. So Thats a little bit of my background. </span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: So your family has basically your family has lived in New York all there lives, do you know how that happened? Did they come through Ellis Island?</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>MR</b>: I don’t know if they got through Ellis Island they came by boat. They lived down on the 30’s when they first came down…. on Essex Street. Basically were here and we don’t know any body else who’s in our family who is anywhere else like out west or anything like that. So basically blue collar works. The story of my family like so many is education. When we were coming up, my generation was the first generation that was told you’re going to college. Before that it was only “rich people” who could go to college. My father left grammar school in the 7th grade- and but he-you thought you’d be murdered if you didn’t go to college, because education’s very important, same with my mom, my father had a 7th grade education, my mother had two years of high school but again they could read and write and do everything and wonderful people but the stress was you’re going to college. I had too older brothers they went to college I didn't really want to go but I had no choice, later on my mom said, “We never thought you’d go,” I said, “I didn't think I had a choice I thought you guys would kill me if I didn't go to college.” Plus in my time was the Vietnam War, so you went to college because you could get a college deferment to stay out of the Vietnam War. So no disrespect to the veterans but that was a terrible war and my fathers a World War II vet but he used to say to me and my brothers, “you’re not going to that war because that war’s ridiculous okay that not a true war… “ So thats basically it, I went to Colonel hayes High School. I’m Catholic by faith and got a great Catholic school education. Grammar school Colonel Hayes High School is a small catholic boys high school and I went to City College and thank god I was able to go to Hunter for a masters degree. </span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: Tell me a little about your childhood, growing up here what was it like in sort of the neighborhood sense.</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>MR:</b> I always say this, it was a great place to grow up we grew up on 151st street almost the whole block is the school and around the block is the church. and in the summer we were a play street, which meant they closed the street, no traffic could go through and there was always some organized, usually though he church and we had games and we owned the street and we played all day long we played stick ball, I love stick ball we still play stick ball one day a year on our block. At night we played games like Ring-a-levio. We played so many street games but that’s how we did it in those days we played other guys on other blocks. There was a sense of ownership that this was our block. It wasn’t like gangs like we’d fight other people who’d come down the block first of all we weren't that tough. We just wanted to play sports, street games. In that sense it was good. Now there was a part of it that was… was there was just this prevailing sense that drugs were coming in strong, drugs create crime, crime makes the streets not safe, the buildings not safe, makes you scared, people break into buildings, they break into schools, churches, they don’t give a damn if they’re using and stores and cars and anything, all bets are off. There was just a sense when we were growing up, people mugged in the streets, snatching pocket books, there was just this sense that things were going awry, but I also thought that that was happening in the entire world, I thought the whole world was experiencing these things, also in the tv you did see, I remember when Dr. King was assassinated and you were like, “Oh my god the tension on thew streets…” Even though this always kind of a.. where I grew it was a racially mixed neighborhood, Black, White, Hispanic, largely Puerto Rican at that time, so it was a mixed community, we had friends of all races, that was a great equalizer, school was a great equalizer, I’m glad I had two older brothers because they were on the good curve of things and educating me on issues of the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War they were schooling me which was fabulous. So growing up then there was also this sense that all hell was braking loose okay it was just a ritual that just friends from your class, it almost seemed like it summertime one family just disappeared, like were moving “goodbye” and never came back. And people always said its true the phrase they use is White Flight, but I always say it was across the board flight, stable families, White Black and Puerto Rican it was a certain point in time there would be a straw that broke the camels back, and there would be no drama about it you’d just here so and so’s moving. And it was a sadness because you lost your friends. They were taking up stakes and going…North Bronx, we thought that was far away Fordham Road it’s not that far away, or other places, so that was part of the situation. So in that sense that was a shadow over the childhood but we thought it was normal and I appreciate growing up in this environment because it teaches you there’s evil in the world theres not evil people, drugs are horrible, normal people became addicted and did things they normally would not do like steal beat people up break into apartments terrible stuff. On the other hand I would never trade growing up here for nothing because it taught you so much and it was a great moral lesson, and at the end, grounded me in many ways. </span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: Did you had any friend that you grew up with that got caught up by the drugs?</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>MR</b>: What was happening was people… it gets to 8th grade, high school, and then college was different ‘cuz that wasn’t in the neighborhood it wasn’t far but that was a big world going to college even though it’s City College it’s not far. What really happened was which still happens in New York people just disappear, they just kinda’ disappear and then you say, “What happened to so and so” and they would say, “Awe man I heard he’s messed up.” Or the family would move. But you saw, I remember a guy in particular who came back from Vietnam and he was a strapping dude, and then he looked like hell, and he was addicted to heroin and you were like, “What the hell” and the big thing out in my day all in the street was drinking, families almost gave you a medal if you drank beer because you at least weren't smoking pot. We were deathly afraid we would never - I mean I would never… heroin cocaine… the heavy drugs and again I say it’s a lesson because I saw it… I saw people stoned out of their mind, I saw people who looked like walking skeletons and I said, “What could drive you to that situation.” No judgment attached just it scared the shit out of you, so I was never going to go that way. Which was bad too because it made alcohol so acceptable I have a shit-load of friends who are in AA. It was kind of the time too, all bets were off, there was tremendous license. </span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: So you had friend maybe that you were growing up with that maybe you were really close with when you were young and maybe they disappeared.</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>MR</b>: Yeah there were guys that just kinda disappeared, now that we had this play street and the school and the church were an anchor, I have friends now that I grew up with and I still go to a baseball game with them I’m… we were a band of brothers… I have childhood friends that come back for stickball or they come back to watch because their legs are shot.*laughs* I have childhood friends that I grew up with and thank god they’re in tact, and we get together and we… support each other  and… you know… still know each other. Now there are always those people who… I don’t have any real blood close friends who just kinda’ fell of the… The guys you knew that you would say what ever happened to so and so and they’re like, “Yo I heard he’s screwed up I heard he lives in Florida now I heard he’s using I heard he got arrested” So there were those guys who became lost in the dark side. </span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: Were there any places in the neighborhood that you avoided did you know spots that you knew not to go to?</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>MR</b>: Absolutely I mean the word was, our block, you felt safe on our block and the general vicinity, but there was certain sense that if you were going to go, like we have a lot of public housing; 99% of people who live in public housing are hard working, trustworthy, friends of mine, go to the church. 99%. 1 or 2% are knuckleheads, are in my opinion, not a scientific survey, are selling out of the apartments, heroin marijuana all kinds of crazy stuff oxycontin, all kinds of drugs and guns. And those 1 or 2 % are very successful of screwing up the buildings and peeing in the hallway and those of the things which are quality of life issues. So yes when we were growing up we would kinda go around but it was lets go around in a group not that we were in like gangs or crews but just for safety and you shouldn’t go by yourself, go with a few friends but I would say there would be a rubber band of like 6 blocks, stay within the 6 and then once you got beyond the 6 blocks you don't really know anybody. Uou may know 1 or 2 people but you don’t really-and they don’t know you and then you kinda gotta flip thing because I’m white that it easy to pick on the white guy, okay *laughs* and that wasn’t fun. So I always prided myself, I got mugged once or twice but my father taught me to fight, Not fist and cuff but we fought in the street to and you weren't going to let nobody push you around so you were going to fight but then you had to be carful if guys had a knife or something there were no guns in those days I mean you were worried about getting punched, hit with a stick, a chain maybe, <i>maybe</i> a knife but now it’s so bloody dangerous with these crazy knuckleheads with these guns. There was a perimeter. One place that was always safe to go was Yankee Stadium, we’d walk to Yankee Stadium we’d go in groups, we loved the Yankees, and thats our backyard its 12 blocks from us were proud of that too. There were definitely certain places you wouldn't go and there were certain places you would NEVER go at night and there still are. </span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: Same sort of Places? Or they’ve moved around a little bit probably?</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>MR</b>: They’ve moved a little bit some have not moved much at all, but I will go there now, I will go there now, Because… why…because my neighbors live there. Now I’m going with young people sometimes from the church the school or the documentary center. So when we go back from the game you don’t say goodbye you say, “Wait were you going” they say, “I’m going home” you say, “no no i’ll <i>walk</i> you.” Especially the young ladies we walked them you walk a person to their door, but thats the New York thing. </span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: Tell me a little bit more about how specifically you’re involved in the neighborhood how you got involved in the community with gardening and explained what you do specifically. </span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1">I’m very pleased to always meet with the young people ‘cuz I admire you and I’m glad that theres an interest in this community. and i was in the community and you saw thing buildings being burnt. destruction and there was always this sense that you should be a good citizen and be involved, and then there was also a sense that the city’s corrupt and the politicians are totally corrupt and just stay away from that. And there was a sense that it was pointless you're hittin’ your head against the wall you cant fight City Hall. We were always somewhat socially conscious, but the tipping point was me and my wife got married and we made a conscious decision to be in this neighborhood and to raise children in this neighborhood and in 1986 and she was teaching in the South Bronx and I could walk to work, but right around the block is the firehouse and believe it or not in 1986 the city of New York said they were going to close our firehouse, and we said wait a minute, did you never here the story about how the South Bronx burned down? and you’re going to close the firehouse? It was the 23rd busiest firehouse in the city of New York engine 41. And the city said they were going to move it but by moving it they were going to close another Engine company. Well make a long story short, and it was a long story, from 1986 to 1990 we fought to have it not moved, public hearings, mobilization, demonstrations in the street. And this was all brought about by a wonderful group called the South Bronx People for change and our church we were the Social Action Committee in our church, and if we knew what we were getting into I don”t think we would’ve done it, but we got into a war with the city of New York. and allied with us in the course of this were elected officials and [we] really had to grab the by the collar sometimes and the fire department union and I met so many incredible people and we fought, fought, fought and we got money in the city budget to keep our fire house, we had a lot of great support by the city council and the mayor was Ed Koch and on May 4th 1990, Ed Koch in spite of all the money that was there, he close the firehouse and that son of a… we… he broke our heart and he closed our firehouse, and some people told us, “you guys fought a great fight you have nothing to be ashamed of but its over.” and now we said, “wait a minute, what more can you do to us? now you close our firehouse,” so we did not stop, we continued to fight and put it in the public eye we had a lawsuit we kept pushing trying to breathe life into that bloody thing and Koch was leaving office and everyone who was running for mayor we brought every single one of them to this block and pointed at that building and said, “yo are you going to open a firehouse?” and they all promised, and David Dinkins became the mayor and David Dinkins reopened our firehouse. But what happened was in 14 months it was closed, 14 people died in this area, and we said that would happen. We were a high fire incident area, arson still not as bad as it was, but that was the tipping point, and we fought and they said “You cant fight City Hall” we said, “yes you can, now you might get your ass kicked but you got to fight.,.” So that was an issue and was all about public safety it was about our buildings and it was also about pride. You come to our block? to close our firehouse when its this busy? are you crazy? you would never have gone to Riverdale, you would never have to the Upper East Side or the West Side in the 80’s and tried to close their fire house you wouldn’t you came to the South Bronx, it was Environmental Racism and it affected the environment, you came down to a community of color which had a horrible voting record, we should be ashamed of ourselves we vote like a bunch of knuckleheads, we don't vote and we had elected officials who were clueless and they've gotten better i’ll say that. This fight galvanized the community on many level. the churches the civic groups, when it reopened hallelujah. The next phase was they were tied to other crazy things and now we had the South Bronx People for Change, whatever are the issues this is how you organize: community based organizing. and we had the tools and we had the structure and we had allies throughout the whole South Bronx and so that was a wonderful thing and then we wanted to get a traffic light, 12 years we fought for a traffic light we finally got a traffic light. Gimme a break it doesn't take 12 years to get a traffic light in Times Square area it Doesnt take 12 years to get a traffic light in Riverdale, it takes 12 years to get a traffic light in the South Bronx. Why? <i>why</i>? okay? It begs the question, “Gimme a break will ya?” And also one or two [hone calls to the elected official he gets on the things and I’m not talking about under the table I’m talking about right on top of the table just get it done okay so people don’t get hit by cars, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand this stuff. So finally something positive in the sense of… there was an abandoned lot on 151st street and one of the brothers in the church said why don’t we make a community garden there, and that was a good sign to me that we were saying were going to be proactive instead of reactive. Fighting the city which we get put in a reactive situation. lets create a garden and it was done in conjunction with my job at that point in time which was group homes for handicapped people and the garden would be something that would be green for the community, grow vegetable plants and all the beautiful things, and also get people who have been isolated because of their physical disability and mental retardation, they lived in institutions back in the day. This is a good place where they could garden and meet people and get involved. And the community garden came out of that and it’s been amazing and it brought together lots of people, we have music in the garden, we grow stuff, we have a barbecue pit, we have celebrations, we celebrate Halloween, Easter we, celebrate lots of things in the garden, and it’s become a community center and the point of all of this… I’m going around the Mulberry Bush - “how’d you get involved.” I did not get involved because i’ll be honest with you because of the importance of greenery, that was part of it, but… it was anger. It was also survival… and it was also like, “Wait a minute other parts of the community have great resources how come we don’t what it wrong with us.” And part of it is you say, “Okay take responsibility” and part of is I don't talk about the man the man dump on us even though I do believe the man does dump on us whoever the man is the establishment we had to get some creditability and we also said to the powers that be, and we had to learn to use the system in the City of New York to say if we want a garden we’ll get a garden you know follow the rules and get a garden. So all the focus was the children. Our kids deserve a nice, green, safe place to plant and learn something and come together. The fight for the firehouse was to save buildings but the most vulnerable people were the seniors the children the people with disabilities, and thats what drove us crazy that these sons of… of… guns would dare to put us in that position. Well, you put us in that position were going to fight. And thats what we did. I would rather spend more time being proactive because we still seem like we’re fighting so many other powers that be. But thanks to the South Bronx People for Change it gave us the tools and mechanisms to see things in our community which need to be improved. And then use the system to get it done. Do your due diligence and do your work and make it happen and thats what we learned to do. It’s and intoxicating feeling. It happens as a group and happens as a community and it’s empowering and it teaches the young people this is how you live your life, wherever you go, you don’t let nobody treat you like a second class citizen and don't let nobody dump on you. But you have to create a group thats going to work together to try to have a good quality of life and you deserve that. It’s not silly. For example the firehouse, the firehouse has been there since 1924 maybe before that, we said and were people of faith, the South Bronx People of Change had Mosques, Catholic churches Lutheran churches Episcopal churches, we didn’t have a synagogue but if there was one they would’ve been on board we would’ve tried to bring in our Hebrew brothers. we said this, god almighty but our firehouse up there because it was to save peoples lives. Ed Koch has got it all wrong. Because he thinks he has the power to come down here. Now he had the power and he exerted that power and he did it and what did it get him, 14 people died, he didn’t even save money for the city, knucklehead. There was a play on broadway once, “Your arm’s to short to box with god.” God put it there and we kept saying, “God, put it back” and he did put it back, now we organized and we pushed on the ground, and in the courts, with the elected officials and it was successful, but we give all the power and thanks to God, everyone else helped and that’s a good thing. And the same with the community garden it’s an ongoing thing it’s a lot of work to keep a garden going, but that’s a long way around, a lot of that stuff for me personally came from anger and indignation that, “here we go again,” and “Just stop doing this to our people, this is ridiculous, you guys, stop neglecting us, stop looking the other way. and stop saying what you say, ‘We can get away with this stuff in the South Bronx.’” and its been our legacy, waste transfer station, we had a medical waste incinerator, a lot of issues they dumped on us because we were politically disorganized and because some people were taking money under the table, so that’s a little, but where it all came from now I'm glad that historians and students are learning what happened to us because we were like soldiers in the trenches, and if somebody asked whats going on, “I don't really know whats going on they're shootin’ at me,” we don’t want to be violent were pacifists, we practiced civil disobedience, we stood arm and arm, we are not against the police but they sent the police, but we were in the trenches, so we’re fighting, when the smoke clears it’s important to understand the context and what exactly happened, and why? So it’s not repeated so that we can pass on these tools which we can pass onto the next generation. we say this look i touch that firehouse every day of my life, they may want to come back, we watch that firehouse like a hawk, and the same with the garden, our garden was on the list to be auctioned in the city of New York, and we had to fight for our garden, same thing, a lawsuit citywide with other gardening group, demonstration. They used to come with a bulldozer at five in the morning and drive it in and try to trash the garden and then by the time you got there it was back to an empty lot again. And say, “sorry guys, close it padlock it.” Putting the police in that terrible position, because the cops don't like that either you're using the cops to be like the Gestapo on the community. </span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: So they bulldozed your garden and you had to keep building it back up?</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>MR</b>: Well no see they didn't bulldoze our garden, but we had a plan we had those airhorns, we had the people across the street with airhorns and a phone chain and if someone saw a bulldozer at six in the morning and we were going to run up and lay down on the sidewalk, and say, “Go ahead run it over” But I know other gardens Cabo Rojo garden was bulldozed one of my buddies climbed up the tree, and was in the tree and it was like a standoff, now they bulldozed as far as they could and he wasn’t coming out of that bloody tree, it was a demonstration it was to try to prove, but eventually he came down, I don't know if they arrested him, but that was the story with him, but they bulldozed a lot of gardens and I was also part of a group called South Bronx United Gardeners, there were 22 gardens around here we wanted to save them all, I knew we weren't going to save them all, but I said what if we save half, gardens have to stick up for themselves, South Bronx United Gardeners were successful because half of the gardens <i>were</i> saved, then the developers came and nothing against the developers, but we were like, “We took over these gardens when no one was down here and we built them into beautiful gardens. now you wanna come here?” The garden is city land okay? There was a building there once that became usually burned down and then the city demolished the building and then all that rubble laid in that lot and some groups had the idea lets make a garden and they cleared all that out and they put all that dirt in and they put this nice garden, they used to pay 1 dollar a year for that lease and its city land. now technically they were supposed to tell you… half of the gardens were saved because evolutions… the gardens became true community resources and true community meeting places and we have very little green space around here and they became a little pocket of heaven for some people. and they are our green space, they’d become also educational centers because the kids are learning stuff the kids our going to come in our garden [in a couple of weeks] see real plants see real compost bins, see real stuff, right next store so they don't have to go to the Botanical Garden, well they should go… but they could walk right next store and see the whole thing, cherry trees, birds, so it created… it evolved way beyond our wildest dreams which is a wonderful thing which happens…</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: so just to give a time frame, when did this whole thing start, with the firehouse and everything.</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>MR</b>: They started with the firehouse in 1986, we fought for 3 years, and in 1989 they closed, on May 4th 1989 and it reopened July 1st 1990, 14 months later and thank god it’s been open. and I don't think they’ll ever mess with it again but you can never say never. And then the garden came around… it was before that, it started in 1983, but the garden started to get threatened in the 1990s so then things that you think like we got our garden it’s great it’s beautiful… and then all the sudden you started hearing, “They’re going to auction your garden off?” And your like “what?” The garden has a block and a lot number and for the block and the lot number for all the vacant lots it’s listed as… a vacant lot… so some guy downtown sees a block and lot number in the Bronx and says for some reason, “I like 151st street, thats my lucky number, it’s really cheap, but they don't know its a community garden because on the paper it says <i>vacant lot</i> and then it became a community garden, that was a citywide lawsuit and Elliot Spitzer was the attorney General, finally it was all ironed out, a lot of demonstrations, people got arrested, civil disobedience, it was peaceful. finally the city agreed… two major garden groups, Bette Middler’s Group, New York Restoration and the trust for public land, bought a nice bunch of all these community gardens, the Parks Department said, “Okay we won’t touch these gardens and the rest can go to these developers.” Some gardens got consolidated, our garden, we didn't know it, our garden was saved we were part of the lawsuit, this particular day we knew they were going to court and they were, “like we should know by three o’clock” and I called the lawyers and Giuliani was the mayor then. they said “your garden is saved” Giuliani… they struck a deal but your garden is saved. We were like “who?” they said someone bought your garden but not a developer, a trust. We didn’t know it took two weeks we found out it was the Trust for Public Land so our garden will be a Garden forever, whatever forever means… so our garden is saved. but again they were going to come down with bulldozers and clear our garden. but thank god our garden was saved… that would've been somewhere around 1993, whenever Elliot Spitzer, whenever the agreement came with the Giuliani administration, but it never would've happened if the pressure was not brought city wide, but Elliot Spitzer was the champion of that… he did some crazy stuff… but he ironed out that whole agreement him and his staff, i’ll give him credit his people used to come to the South Bronx United Gardeners meetings and… the classic story: David and Goliath…so the Israelites saw the Goliath and said “We can not win,” and David said “he’s a giant, how can i miss him?” And he took the rock and hit the giant because he was a big target… and thats what I saw that we were doing. And they, “Said you can’t fight City Hall are you crazy?” and we were like, “no.” After the firehouse was reopened, there was an article in the Daily News, “A little engine that could” you can fight City Hall and win because thats what happened. you might get you're ass kicked but you got to fight, if they beat you fair and square or they beat you dishonestly then they beat you but at least you just didn't fold, you put up a fight, but the fight is never over, and they told us the fight was over at 41, and it looked over we were crying in the street, then we got madder, we got even crazier because what the hell can you do now? you took the bloody firehouse… we fought with a new anger and energy. but always would hope… it was about Koch but it wasn't about… we saw Koch at parades and we’d say, “Do the right thing, Ed… You can’t close the company.. .you’re doing the wrong thing.. .” He refused to look at the big picture, same thing with the garden. I know it’s about money. You can put up a thing and collect taxes and taxes, I know that, but you see the kids come on earth day, you see the joy the children have, can we just have a little piece a green? Don't you have enough money? When is enough enough? It’s a quality of life issue, and we deserve that. And we built it. It's a wonderful thing when the community achieves. It’s a powerful thing to the children. </span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: So it sound like what you’re saying in the beginning when you started our with all this stuff the city was like this unstoppable madness and you had no say. Do you think that changed over time, because of the community’s work became more aware of you guys?</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>MR</b>: Yes I think because of the South Bronx People for Change, which was here fighting for firehouse, over in the Hunts Point section of the Bronx was fighting against drugs and prostitution with the same tools. and I think we built kind of a track record, which somebody once said to us, “you guys are like pit bulls and they just don’t want to deal with you anymore.” We went through the proper channels and we were schooled by some brothers in Brooklyn because they closed their firehouse int he 1970s, we went to the fire commissioner’s house we went to the mayor’s house,  every parade in New York City and we’d go with sign and when we saw the mayor running we’d yell “Don’t close engine 41,” and we know they were like, “we don’t want to hear about their house any more.” because we were such a giant pain in the house and that politics get in their ear. Again were a faith based organization there’s a story in the scripture Jesus tells… where the unjust judge, the widow comes and says, “You have to give me my share” and he says, “no I’m not giving it to you, I fear neither god nor man” and she’s a widow so she has no children or husband to fight for her so she keeps knocking on the door and eventually he says once more, “I fear neither god nor man but give her what she wants just to shut her up.” and part of our thing was our persistence. It also about speaking truth to power. why would you close our firehouse? answer me, Don’t gimme no bullshit about money. That the question, why? If you’re mad enough to do it come to the block with the bulldozers meet with the people explain it to the people talk about some options and then do it but they don't they send their minions down here. Buts that’s right, it was this machine and we would just get run over and peel ourselves like in cartoons off the sidewalk and say, “They're right we are a bunch of idiots around here,” and then a lot of self hate comes in and you know… but what we experienced was learning the tools to say there’s ways to addressing this. trying to speak truth to power, using the system and then going around the system and putting pressure… and I think it did build a track record we’re still fighting in this community, were fighting in the New York City housing authority to get peoples apartments cleaned up now South Bronx People for Change doesn't exist anymore there’s a new group called South Bronx Churches, not really that new, and they've done a lot of good stuff in the community but it’s the same concept, organize, put pressure on the politicians, hold them accountable. Our elected officials in that paster were sometimes very week, and normally thats their job to hold them accountable the lines get blurred because sometimes they all seem to be at the same table but in the same bed with each other, they might say something to your face and then walk away and say, “Do what you want, don't listen to those people they’re a pain in the neck,” and we told all of our people you got to fight with us, and we made enemies and we said if you can’t do it, we’ll vote you out, we’re telling you to do your job, don’t you get paid to do this and they get offended, but we’re trying to have a nice relationships, and we’d pull that card… it’s not a card it’s to hold them accountable. And that’s what they do in Riverdale they tell them to their face. They call he politicians and say, “You sit down we’re going to talk to you” and “You go to City Hall and do this,” and they represent the people, around here it was like a third world country its like a South American dictatorship, and these guys in power were out to lunch, making a lot of money, and they’re in bed with the developers as opposed to representing the people in the street. and it will never end but the struggle continues on many other issues still.</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: You say a lot they had the tools the resources when you started out. Tell me a little bit more what kind of things they had how they helped how that community built over the years a success, what sort of tools they had what sort of resources they had.</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>MR</b>: It was a small group that got funding through the Catholic church and some government money for like inner city justice campaigns and basically what they would do is: base up. people power… it was bilingual, Spanish and English, people power, saying, “would you like us to come to your church?” and they provided training, my wife went to the training and I came behind her and she got all of these things going, examine the power structure and who has the power in this situation and you go from the mayor and city council and community board, and you learn the system and then we walked that walk, so they would help you with that, also what they really said was “What is your issues?” First these building on Cortlandt Avenue were being demolished and we say, “Stop demolishing them, we got blocks and blocks of empty block, renovate them, there’s good structures.” We used to go around with a stencil and stencil the building, “This building is claimed by the people.” It meant nothing but again it was what are these people doing in the street? Civil disobedience, this is our building don’t dare touch it. On top of that there were people meeting with HUD and with the city saying, “stop doing this,” young people of color and white, it was a great group learning the power structure, with Koch we’d try to hit the community board, the community board would say, “Well you know we’ll try but…” …”okay write a letter to tell the mayor”…, “I don’t know if I can write a letter you know” cuz you saw they were afraid, they didn’t want to get on the bad side of the mayor and we’d say, “Okay to hell with them.” You saw it they’re in bed, so don’t find them and then the borough president “Well you know the mayor you know how the mayor’s a pain in the ass.” “He is a pain in the ass but wait a minute.” I’ll never forget, once we went to a meeting where there was elected officials, our best friends with the fire union, we went bang! screaming and yelling and shit and when we left the meeting one of my friends from the fire union called me, and said “They had no idea you guys were so militant” and I said “good, good” You can’t buy us you cant buy us they’d say, “what if we just put ambulances in the building, what if we gave you guys like two thousand dollars for you organization.” And we could <i>not</i> be bought cuz we’d say, “no ambulances, 41 and 41 alone.” A lot of people can be bought, organizations can be bought, but that organization was so incredible, for example this is what… and I threw this out I had to go give a talk at the gentrification conference about oral history and this was basically ***explains the chart** One of our friends in Brooklyn said, “Take ‘em to court get some lawyers pro bono, reach out to any group in the city, fire protection, community gardens.” It’s about faith it’s about believing, its about churches, churches are full of nuts and dedicated people, churches scared the shit out of elected officials, they’d say, “Wait a minute how did all these… they got muslims, catholics… lutherans.” We got a letter from Jesse Jackson just before he ran for president back in the late 80’s, we got a letter from the Rainbow Coalition, we were so proud of that, I swear when Ed Koch saw that he went to the bathroom and said, “Wait a minute, gimme a break, why are they reaching out across the country are they nuts? this is nothing, what are they crazy?” But we reach people of faith and when you have demonstrations, they come. Community awareness make the neighborhood realize community action, we had a prayer vigil every night at 7 O’clock in front of the people one or two people rain cold snow somebody would put a hand on the firehouse and pray thats what we believed. And then the press, this was before the internet, mailing things, snail mail, and the press was wonderful to us, and that’s a big job… this is what the South Bronx People for Change… that you have to hit this on every front. At least once a week you tried to hit somewhere, you tried to do something whether it was a phone call, a letter, something, and you just don't let it die. thats hard, keep breathing life into this thing. Everyone wants it do die I swear to god! Even the pastor in the church sometimes will… when our firehouse reopened the paster came and he’s a good man and he came and, we knew this, the pastor came and blessed it, the church bells rang, it was like a movie it was fabulous. He said to Francine my wife, “I never thought you guys would get this firehouse reopened,” and I said, “I knew it… but you’d in the kitchen… “he’s a knucklehead…” because he didn’t have faith, well i’m not saying he didn't have faith he had faith in his religion but he had been a beaten down dude he didn't have faith in the community… and were walking on water we didn't know what the hell we were doing we were a bunch of knuckleheads. and you know… they say courage is fear that has said its prayers. We were scared shitless, we were getting beat up constantly… not literally emotionally. But we kept going forward because we were together, it was a unity. so i dunno… </span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: Now about the incinerator, </span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1">It was late 90’s, there was a medical waste incinerator over on 138th Street and Locust Avenue which is about two miles from here a mile and a half, it was  amedical waste incinerator and they would only burn red bag medical waste. It was the only functioning incinerator left in the city of New York, but they built it, they BUILT it in the 90’s. The jewish community of Riverdale said to some people in the South Bronx, “you know they’re building a medical waste incinerator near you?” we said, I don’t think so, who does that anymore. Red bag medical waste is a biological problem it could have disease, so theres a problem there, so when you burn it you burn plastic so now you create a chemical problem. You try to solve a biological problem but you create a chemical problem so the point of it was this technology of incineration was antiquated, you don’t burn anything anymore, you autoclave everything. So this is part of what we had to learn: autoclave means you get all the red bag stuff and you steam it and it becomes a giant block of plastic and the pathogens are dead, and you created steam and steam is not pollution, you could use it has landfill you could recycle it, and we were like wait a minute are you guys crazy? And they hadn’t even finished building and it was “No… it’s going to be staate of the aaart” *fake reassuring* and we were like, “State of the art my ass!” So they built it and community pressure now, tried to get a lawsuit, environmental impact study and a lot of elected officials were in bed with that company that built it. the head of the community board was indicted by the FBI because he took fifty thousand dollars from that medical company that built that incinerator. And we were like. “here we go again.” the South Bronx Clean Air Coalition, and that was environmental racism 101 and we did a lot of stuff to fight and push, honestly I did not want to get involved with that I’m done, the firehouse, the garden, we won I’m going to take a vacation, but the guys I got to know them and they’re my brothers now and it’s that voice in your head “oh bullshit i ain’t takin this no more” and it’s “what are you doing to our kids are you guys crazy?” they are nuts they are… their drunk with money, and they see money, and we’re secondary and their pocket came first. and the medical waste incinerator… burning, burning, i smelt it many times, but you would not smell smoke if you got close to it you'd smell a horrible nasty smell of like decaying food and of like a thing that gets in the back of your throat… like a dead body. we fought we fought we fought, legal, the churches again, but the South Bronx clean air coalition was its own entity, we applied a lot of the same principle, we had demonstration and everything. We brought the kids, Bronx Lebanon hospital.. to had the medical waste incinerator a hostpital had to hold the license. Bronx Lebanon Hospital held the license. We used to meet with the heads of BLH and say, “What’s wrong with you? How could you do this in could conscious.” Becasue they got all their medical waste done for nothing. We used to go to BLH with 2-3 busloads of kids lay on the sidewalk and draw chalk marks and every kid would have a mask on and then the kids write the name and we’d say, “You're killing us,” this was before everyone was talking about asthma, we were ahead of the curve. and they were like “It’s not really… it doesn't effect the air” they tell you this to your face and… we fought we fought we fought… at that time the governor was Pataki who was a republican and D’Amato who was a senator was a republican. and we had gained critical mass and the looked really bad, and more stuff was coming out in the press and we wouldn't let up and we kept bringing busload for demonstrations. *giggling* get in the back of the bus with 60 kids and then the guys from Parks Department would have to come out and look at these sidewalks, I’m sure they got those guys with the hoses. It makes everyone who walks into BLH, “wait a min whats going on?” and you say, “The hospital’s holding the permit for the incinerator and they’re burning the medical waste and we have asthma.” and it begs the question, “why are you doing that?” We finally got… the company agreed to get an expert in to come and examine the place they paid for the guy, they gave him total access and he wrote a scathing report how horrible it was in there, bags popping needles falling on the floor poor workers are picking em up with their hand with gloves, throwin’ em back in, the whole thing was a goddam disaster, we always said this he wrote a report that was the torpedo that sunk the ship but they bought the torpedo they paid him… and then Pataki was the hero now where the hell he came from… we don’t care who does it just do it and he did it and it closed. It is still a waste transfer station but they don’t burn no more, and they had these stacks, we wanted reassurance that they were not going to burn again, because they kept the stacks up ad we knew that they had the mechanism. we went to their headquarters in Brooklyn with two busloads of kids and they came out like “what do you want? were no burning no more.” and one of the kids said why don't you take down the stacks? and we were like yeah why don't you take down the stacks? and then you know how things work a few days later, “were going to take down the stacks okay” that was our victory, they had a crane and they said, “Who’s going to press the button to lift the crane?” and they said the borough president and we said “The same borough president who looked the other way when they built that thing?” I don’t think thats right and I know the borough president he’s a nice guy, but we were like “really? The Borough President? I don’t know if thats right.” And they were like. “Well who do you want and we were like one of the kids.” It was the kid and the borough president *giggles* so I always told the kids after that and then we asked them for reparation money, and a lot for the churches and the schools got ten, twenty thousand dollars from Browning-Ferris Industries, and I always told the kids, “Now some neighborhoods will learn history, but to the day you die I want you kids not to just learn the history of the incinerator, you made history, you closed that thing.” Those kids wrote letters to the offices and they're learning how the system works, and don’t spin your wheels on low level people who cant effect it who can effect it the governor go right to the governor and keep going. and then look at that gov. and say how long does he got (If he ain’t gonna change his mind) so lets get the guys who are running next, these are not quick battles these are wars. once your into you’re into it, you're getting yourself beat up a lot and it’s emotionally draining. When it’s a community we joke sometimes and its like war stories like “Remember the days when we did this?” And you cant do this anymore you’d be arrested in a New York minute now-a-days or you gotta get a permit, we would do stuff bang we’d just do stuff, and it was not that far away 1990’s, 2000’s. One of my main points that I keep saying is, “If you could bottle up all that energy do you know how many parks we could’ve built and you made us fight an incinerator? Why didn’t you just let us do it the first week and let us bottle that energy and build more parks and more community gardens and paint murals and do positive things?” But it's the hand were dealt don’t cry about it and just… that model works and those are the tools we learned from the South Bronx People for Change, and they didn't invent them. In hindsight it work and it brings together people, it take a toll and it brings people together. </span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: So you said your retired what sort of things do you nowadays in the community?</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>MR</b>: Yeah yeah… I’m never retired till they put me in the ground. Now I’m trying to be involved. There’s always that reactive stuff that we have to you know keep the wolves away from the doors cuz the wolves keep coming and they smell money down here and blood so i still try to be involved in improving police protection, i do help a little bit with the South Bronx churches, which is going to public meetings putting pressure on NYCHA. There’s a big public meeting here with the police commissioner in a few weeks in our church we’re gonna have five hundred people here and say what we need we got some good steps, but they’re not giving us enough cops. But then I stay involved with the garden of course, and I’m all now about proactive, the school has a garden club, I help with the garden club once a week, it’s all fun in games, I firmly believe in that too. We have a stick ball tournament once a year, we have the Easter egg hunt, our garden got totally renovated last year, fabulous, I volunteer at the botanical garden I’m on a committee, big deal… ‘cuz thats the other thing try to be connected across the board, the Bronx Land Trust I’m involved with that, yeah I do stay involved with “The greening community” and then my wife’s a teacher so if I can help her school. And I’m involved with the documentary center, anything to help them keep the building clean, we’ll build frames for the next show, this again elevates our community. I myself, I’m from the Bronx when the documentary deicide to come in I said to myself is this guy crazy? Does he know where he’s putting this documentary center, and the answer is he is crazy, *laughs*  but I love him he’s my brother now because you would do it if you weren't *laughs* but it’s made such a magnificent difference. So anything thats involved in young people and energy and positivity, and the magical word is fun. If it’s fun for the kids, and if it’s not fun lets make it fun. What was important to me was play, thats what let us feel safe, that we played games and what we learned from play was yeah were all different colors and teams and we could get really mad at each other, fight with each other, and then it had to end, and you had to shake hands. So I stay busy and there’s enough things that are going on I play music in the church *phone rings* Im a musician…*leaves to answer phone*</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: I think were going to wrap up pretty soon, do you have any more things to say on that</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>MR</b>: No… Me personally i’m so grateful to God, I think live is a gift, i have experience now, theres so many wonderful people i also think its very important to be part of a larger community and I’m never bored, now that’s selfish and personal, but if I can do something to help this community because I’m a part of it, this community gave me so much, so i wanna be able to give back so that how I feel.</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: so when you tell someone where you're from what do you tell them?</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>MR</b>: You can always have fun with it but when people say where ya from I say I'm from the Bronx and if they ask where i say the south Bronx everyone one in the world *laughs* has heard about the South Bronx. a lot of people say “You Don’t still live down do you” so I get that a lot and then I get “You didn't live your family down there do you” we raised each other okay? Yeah you still get that eyeball that theres something wrong with you or you're a masochist.</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: You feel like the South Bronx as a whole is your community and neighborhood and not just melrose?</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>MR</b>: well melrose is my stomping ground but no I’m a product of the South Bronx, and maybe theres some sense of pride, but we've been through hell we’re a much maligned community and I've met people who taught me we need to be the champions of our community and we also need to be honest reflectors in our community. I don’t want to be running this bloody neighborhood but to say sometimes among each other, I like this expression that you young people use, “We gotta step up our game, we have to improve our conduct” now some peoples perceptions are wrong too but I’m proud to say I’m from the South Bronx and I’m proud to have been here all my life and I’ve so many different things.</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: If you’d left what would you miss most,</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1">I would miss the people, I would miss my church and the school, and I would miss the people, because this thing is full of characters to and the familiarity, I feel at home here, I’m not blind, I feel safe, now there’s certain blocks certain times of day I would not safe, I could walk down my own block if I saw like six dudes walking up the block I say to myself I might be in some serious trouble here *laughs* but I have plan b, my escape route, if I need to use my escape route, but I would miss the people. The energy, there’s a tremendous energy in this community, these relationships are my entire life, these things I’m involved in, I would miss the overlap in this community if were going to do something we tell the documentary center, we tell the church we tell the paster, we tell the people on the block now they all may not come but theres a good possibility there a lot of overlay and people who are good in this neighborhood, I’m surprised that their egos go in their back pocket, the young man you met Ryan, he’s a wonderful young man he’s a scholar he’s going to a fabulous school and his family comes to the garden and they help. Mario his father, we’ll do something at the garden, and i say i know he ain’t coming and he comes like the Calvary, quiet and he helps, and that sense of we need each other. somebody taught me this a doctor of epidemiology who helps us with our firehouse Dr. Rod Wallace that poor people, working class people whatever you wanna say, we don't have a safety net of bank accounts, property, jewelry, stocks and bonds, what is our safety net? Each other we need each other we literally need each other to get ourselves out of a jam sometimes. To borrow something to assist each other, things that we really need and we depend on each other, a good majority of the time, our wealth, our treasure is each other, and our institutions like our churches and our parishes and things like that.</span></p> <p class="p2"></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1"><b>DG</b>: Great. awesome,</span></p> <p class="p3"><span class="s1">*laughs* </span></p> <p class="p2"></p> Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Marty Rogers Interview Transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dylan Garcia https://melrosestories.org/files/original/f8c85c5482582f70a1bdf3b80f373f71.JPG 2aa3020b61394aa65c484446899b6f38 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michael Kamber Subject The topic of the resource Exhibit Description An account of the resource Perspective on the Melrose Area from a founder of a local cultural center. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thalia Clark Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 18, 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thalia Clark, Michael Kamber, and the Bronx Documentary Center Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Thalia Clark and Michael Kamber Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Man and child learning at Bronx Documentary Center Subject The topic of the resource Happenings at Bronx Documentary Center Description An account of the resource Man and child learning at Bronx Documentary Center Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Unknown Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Michael Kamber Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 20, 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thalia Clark Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Thalia Clark https://melrosestories.org/files/original/2a3f92f567c6ae6235f71fdbaa824248.png aedc3f54ee03b586dd2b65349ee7f5a2 https://melrosestories.org/files/original/06abc9be28a54523dfb5d88f7743343c.m4a 3b7a1663e0044051a12ba2b194abe359 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Marty Rogers Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource An account of activism in the South Bronx by a lifelong member of the community. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dylan Garcia Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audio recording Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 5th 2017, April 21st 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marty Rogers, Dylan Garcia Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Marty Rogers Audio Recording Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dylan Garcia https://melrosestories.org/files/original/6872e8bbc0802fb1334080de0e30d657.jpg 0d83a62f3eaf5ddfac3ec751824e1cab Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michael Kamber Subject The topic of the resource Exhibit Description An account of the resource Perspective on the Melrose Area from a founder of a local cultural center. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thalia Clark Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 18, 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thalia Clark, Michael Kamber, and the Bronx Documentary Center Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Thalia Clark and Michael Kamber Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bronx Documentary Center Subject The topic of the resource Bronx Documentary Center Description An account of the resource Image of the Bronx Documentary Center Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bronx Documentary Center Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available www.bronxdoc.org Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 20, 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thalia Clark Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Thalia Clark, Michael Kamber, and the Bronx Documentary Center